An Douar, Brittany

There was a payment on 23rd September 2011 for Euro

1476.21 made by Residelia.

Some of you may already have been paid by Residelia. So

check you bank French bank account.

However, I believe we should still take some form action

to make sure Residelia understand the implications and

the same kind of issues does not reoccur.

I go this email from Bertrand of CLV.

Dear Client,

We have set up a meeting with the management company of

An Douar, the 6th October at 10.30AM at head office with

Mr Delhal. Our objective is to claim the unpaid rent for

our clients only and to anticipate the future.

I know that under our pressure some rent just have been

paid. Please could you check your French bank statement

as today’s date and confirm ASAP if payment of the

quarter June –July-August has been made?

We will send you the minutes of the meeting next week.

Kind regards

Bertrand LE MIRE

8 rue Alphonse Daudet

44350 Guérande, FRANCE

Tel: 0033 (0) 240 157 485

Fax: 0033 (0) 240 157 495

bertrand@clvproperties.com

Hi

Although this is good news I agree that we need to take concerted action that this does not occur again. The outcome of the meeting on 6 October regarding the future should dictate our future action.

I haven't been able to check my french bank account yet, so I hope that I have been paid.

Regards

We are also in the same boat, and will be out in Audierne next week. We

use CLV and Bertrand is by far the most switched on Accountant etc in

dealing with these problems. We have another leaseback in the Alps that

now has the management company in receivership etc. It has been going

on for 2 years already....... We will need to have an incorporated residents

association, hopefully with a significant number of French owners as this

bolsters leverage locally. That said, CLV is engaged by at least 10 owners

and we would recommend anyone not using them for accounts etc to get in

touch..... We should wait to hear back from Bertrand and to let him steer

the process as his expertise includes finding replacement management

companies etc. So while the situation is not great, believe us it could be a

whole lot worse..... We might need to negotiate a different package with

Residelia.... maybe more time/option to let friends use it etc but less

money for a few years as variation on the contract. It needs to be done very

carefully to avoid VAT liability etc, let Bertrand take the lead

here's hoping

No new developments with Residelia to report. Does anyone have a link to

any French owners? There is allegedly a group going forward with legal

action. At this stage, this sounds inevitable, and far better to be part of a

larger group........

Hi

Apparently as all owners pay taxe fonciere they are all

registered with the tax office and we can request a list

of owners.

This should be a start then we can contact all owners and

decide on a joint course of action.

On another point - what is Goelia's current position in

all of this - as per Bertrand's e-mail above?

Dear Bertrand,

Thank you for the report on the meeting about An Douar.  We are

staying there for the next week, and it is good to know that Goelia are

in the frame going forwards.

There are some major concerns for us regarding both the termination

of the current contract and the loss we suffer as a result.  Firstly, it

seems surprising that the transfer of the current contract does not

seem to offer us any protection, given that it was signed in good faith

for a period of 9 years, and if we were to have left the deal we would

be subject to penalties.

The reduced rental return proposed effectively devalues the worth of

our property based on the rental yield by 33%.  We are unsure

whether the offer of buying the common areas would be set against

this loss.  Also, in terms of the arrangements at An Douar, it is not

immediately clear if the common area includes the hotel rooms.  Either

way, it would be useful to know if these areas generate extra income

or merely attract potential additional liabilities through use (the pool

area etc).

If the common areas are acquired, would is be based on a

proportional basis by apartment value, and what happens if some

owners do not wish to buy into this proposal?  Would the common

area be held by a owners association, or how would this work?

We are around during the week on a French mobile phone number if

you wish to give us a call,

We just sent this to Bertrand, I would suggest (based on our

experience in the Alps), that trying to go it alone etc will just run into

the sand and cost lots in lawyers fees. The attitude of the French

owners will be critical as all these contracts require agreement from

the majority of owners to be enacted

We should wait to see if there is a reply from Bertrand, but it would be

worth looking at our own skill mix for the battles ahead......

I am a hospital doctor, so have no legal or financial background or

knowledge at all (Might explain how we ended up in this scheme!?!). Any

lawyers/accountants etc in the group?

Based on my experience, I would say you need to contact

as many owners as possible and employ a good lawyer. I

have one leaseback at Le Beaumarchais, Pantin, Paris.

The management company wanted to impose a massive rent

reduction on the owners and said they would not pay rent

until the majority of owners signed a new lease. We did

not agree to the new terms and used a French avocat to

recover our rents, successfully. Most owners at this

residence felt that if we had to suffer a reduction in

rent, we would rather it be with a different management

company of our choosing, rather than the bunch of crooks

we felt we were dealing with. Please take proper legal

advice. You have made a major capital investment and to

accept a reduction in rent will devalue your investment

considerably, certainly more than the cost of a good

lawyer. Look at the way your residence is being managed

and draw your own conclusions as to whether it should be

profitable for the management company or not.

It seems to me that not only do owners want a hassle free

investment, but so do the management companies who think

these properties are going to let themselves!

Mudds40824.8938657407

Hi,

As I have not been involved with CLV but are affected could someone please send me Bertrands note. I also intend to contact him as it appears that if this moves forward he needs as many owners as possible on side.

In the commentary I feel that selling the common areas is making ourselves hostage to Residelia in the future as they will use this to control the rent they pay us. In addition, I agree that accepting a 30% rent cut will have a serious impact on the investment value. However unfortunately I believe we should be realistic that some rent reduction may be necessary as a management agent who can't pay is one who can't pay.

For me the only reasonable action is for us to use a lawyer to make sure we get the best possible deal we can that leaves Residelia with enough income to be solvent but no more or we somehow declare Residelia in default, seek compensation and then appoint another company. I guess French companies have to file company reports somewhere so perhaps it would be interesting to see how much money Residelia have. If the other leaseback is profitable for them then they have the money to pay us.

Anyway count me in on any action.

Hi,

I have been thinking about this some more and I think the sale of the common areas would be really bad for us. Not only would Residelia be able to hold us to ransom on future rent negotiations as the development is worthless without the common areas but in theory they could levy a charge against us for use of that area.

I also wonder why as owners we could not collectively incorporate our own management company and employ administrators to do the day to day work. This would have the advantage of cutting out potentially one party in the chain trying to draw profit out of us and allows us to take direct control at the next contract discussion with Goelia. Of course it does have its own administrative drawbacks with so many shareholders.

Hi Greenfintry

I am wondering if you could give me the email of Bertrand.

We have had very little contact from anyone in the past 6

month. We would be interested in going along with the

owners who have signed up with Goelia. Through our French

lawyer we managed to get about 1/4 of what we were owed

before the Christmas. Thanks for your help

elphin88

The sale of the common area is TO us, not away from us. Believe me

trying to set up free standing companies within French law, putting the

existing company into liquidation and avoiding VAT will take several

years and still may fail.... Better to set out our thoughts to Bertrand

ahead of his meeting with the French owners

Martin

This has dragged out a long time- 9 months with no rent

while the property is still being rented by Residelia!!

There appears to be a lot of stonewalling.

I am totally fed up with this.

Has anybody had any recent update from Bertrand?

Does anybody have a contact with the French Syndicate?

In the recent letter that we received from Residelia

it says You should have received a letter from Residélia.

The letter says:

• They may be able to pay you after the opening of

the resort so from April 2012 (it does not say how much

and when)

• The figures of the management are very low

because:

o of the 2008 crisis, the competition of campsites

which are offering swimming pool and entertainment in

summer,

o Poor climate in 2011,

o Opening of a new leaseback of Pierre & Vacances

in Audierne

o Increase of prices in energy.

The mother company is not invoicing any expenses to

Residelia. From 2011, the mother company of Residelia

became hit by the economic crisis also and a solution

must be found.

They propose to reduce the rent by 55% but they also

agree to cancel the leases if you wish in order to put a

new management company.

I am happy to cancel the lease - but how do we go about

this?

I am sure he would like to hear from you. His email is

bertrand@clvproperties.com. Not sure how you have not had a contact

from Goelia as supposedly all owners have been sent details?.! Not

like it is such a huge development is it?

Cheers

Sale of common areas would be bad in addition to

reduction ion rents. Basically we are losing current

value as well as control and possibly future value.

The rent formed the major part of the decision to get in

to this investment.

Independent legal action is possibly only way out to

resolve this so that we do not end up financial hole.

Count me in independent legal action.

Also what is the actual income the property has produced

so far and I believe we should also have an independent

French accountant to see if the investment does not

attract enough income or the way Residellia manages it

makes it so that income is not enough to cover the rent.

How can we find out the French owners?

Also, how and where the owners can meet some where,

discuss and draw up an action plan including any

financial out lay and upfront payments to start the

action.

Thanks for that I am going to email him now. Let you know

how I get on.

elphin88

I am reading all your comments with interest. This has happened at many sites across France.

I have personal experience on two occasions and many of the issues and concerns raised by you our group have already been through.

What you really need to do is to identify all owners and set up an association and then if you are not based in France find a French company who can represent you and negotiate new terms and conditions.

In my case we did agree to a reduction but put a number of clauses into the new contract which said that it was only for two year, could be independently reviewed at that time, accepted additional weeks in the interim etc.

For what it is worth we used C'est La Vie and did achieve an outcome without recourse to legal action which will work out very expensive and most likely still result in the same outcome. We found them very responsive to our needs and after setting up our association had a number of meetings at which C'est La Vie joined by telecall.

Catherine

Just less than 50% of owners took legal action at Le Beaumarchais, Pantin. It cost a few hundred euros each (from memory I think it was between 400 & 700 euros). However, our lawyer also successfully claimed the correct rental increase that we should have had over 2 years ago, so taking legal action, in our instance, was profitable for most owners. We didn't set up an association because our lawyer said he could claim more in compensation if he acted for us as individuals (there was a limit on the level of compensation if we created an association). However, every case and residence is different. But I do believe that you need a French avocat who is specialised in dealing with these matters. Don't let anyone scare you by saying you may need to pay the VAT refund back etc, there are ways round that. Check out your management company, look at their finances. What do they pay themselves? Are they advertising and marketing the residence efficiently?

Has anybody had any rent or any contact from anyone about

An Douar. The silence is getting very worrying.

I have been trying to get some information from Residelia (

with no success) and from C'est la Vie.

I am being ignored.

Could other owners please update on their experiences. It

would be helpful if we stuck together here.

I managed to speak to Bertrand yesterday. He has been persisting in trying

to make progress with An Douar, but it is very slow, mainly due to the

reluctance of the French owners to terminate their leases with Residelia,

preferring to hold onto the vain hope of gaining the rental arrears from

them while they are still our management company. Bertrand continues to

feel frustrated at this position.

Apparently M. Huiban at Shelter-Invest is doing nothing active to move the

situation forward with the French at the moment. However, Bertrand has

been in touch with a M. Cazes, who is representing 6 - 7 of the French

owners. This group is now apparently keen on going with the offer from

Goelia, and Bertrand and M. Cazes will try to work together to co-ordinate

with the various owners. The next stage is that the two of them will contact

their respective clients in 2 - 3 weeks' time with a summary of the present

situation, and, presumably, a recommendation as to how to proceed. Once

they have heard back from their clients, they will contact ALL the owners -

it's possible for them to obtain the whole list - to suggest that we might

already be approaching a majority situation and try to move forward with

Goelia etc.

I know that this is one of the busiest times of the year for C'Est La Vie as

they have to do tax returns before the end of the month. We'll wait to hear

from Bertrand, but I'll try him again if he hasn't contacted us by the second

week in June. I hope this is helpful - we'll put something on the forum

about this information.

Hi All,

It appears that Bertrand is negotiating with other owners

regarding switching management company. It seems like

approx 20 of 60 owners are in touch with him and looking

to move to Goelia. The process of switching management

company etc needs a take up of about 2/3 so there is a

bit of a way to go. It would be important for everybody

to make contact with Bertrand to make their views known.

There is possibly very little likelihood of any rent from

Residelia

It seems to me that Goelia will at least be reliable and

maybe more honorable in their dealings.

We should receive something on this in the next few

weeks.

If anyone has any further information please post on the

forum.

I too have been trying to contact C'est La Vie chasing an

update on the management company problem, but was told that

"they are very bust with the end of tax year." Its

refreshing to hear that Bertrand is still chasing a

solution. He has always been honest and has his clients

best interests at heart. I trust that he will find a

solution and like the rest of you will await his update.

Hopefully we will shortly start receiving a rental income

again.

Are Goelia and Residelia related? Is one a subsidiary of

the other?

Hi

This sounds positive- I mean there appear to be

considerable number of French owners. This strengthens

our situation. Other French owners will have local

knowledge and may have contacts with other management

companies.

I also wondered how/ when Residelia entered the equation.

The problem here is a middleman between the owners and

Goelia. Middlemen take their cut and perhaps this is why

the figures don't add up for Residelia. In short this

appears to be why we may have to take a cut on the rent.

I received my statement yesterday and I have been paid

for June, July, Aug. The only quarter I am missing is

payment in advance for the Sept quarter.

I suppose we now wait for the outcome of the October 27

Meeting.

We are just back from a fine week in Audierne, during this time we had

contact from Bertrand and also did a little digging. At the moment Bertrand

is acting for 10 owners (out of what, 40?) and as mentioned earlier is

looking to put a proposition to Residelia as it looks like they are running out

of money fast..... The bigger the group, the more leverage he has and the

better the deal we may extract.... Our experience in the Alps would be to

avoid going legal if at all possible as it will lead to a long period of no

payment and little asset to recover from the insolvent company. There is

massive over-supply of residences in Brittany which has depressed yields

along with the recession, a grotty summer and algal blooms. None the less,

Audierne and the location of An Douar are exceptional and should succeed

in the long run.... The reduced rates suggested by Bertrand look like the

returns of the new financial environment.... Interestingly, there is a legal

process on going against the architect that caused the whole project to be

delayed by 2 years, and Bertrand is trying to go after some of this money in

the compensation too.

To clarify, Residelia is a sister company to Goelia, and mostly exists in the

nursing/retirement home space, they had intended to expand into

residences, but that plan is now toast, so the move over to Goelia makes

sense and they are VERY BIG.. which should increase the chances of

weathering the next period....

No-one in their right mind would buy a French leaseback

in my opinion. On paper they sound wonderful, in reality

they're a nightmare - so much for a hands-off hassle-free

investment.

There is a market for re-sales, but you will have to

offer such an attractive return to a prospective investor

that you will suffer a capital loss on your investment.

Which is why, in my opinion, you should not accept a

reduction in rent? The market value of your leaseback is

not based on what local studios/apartments may sell for,

it's based on what another investor considers to be a

good return for his investment. The lower the rental,

the lower your asking price needs to be.

You can't get out of the leaseback without paying

compensation to the management company (not even after

the initial 9 year lease (the management company have an

automatic right to renew). Did your selling agent tell

you this?

Do you think this should be a viable investment? Is it

in a good place, with good all year round occupancy?

Could they ever be converted to "classic" accommodation,

or is it only viable as a tourist residence?

No owner should sign anything without having it first

checked out by a proper legal expert (not an accountant,

not the selling agent)

I am not sure how helpful the previous observations are..... like most

hindsight, it is easy to be wise after the event, as I am sure anyone looking

at the value of their RBS or Lloyds shares, Greek bonds or most anything

else would also agree.

Specifically, the issue of getting out of the current leaseback, it is Residelia

that may well want to break out of contract and our task is to extract the

maximum value from their wish to leave: whether this is transfer of

common areas, money back from the court case for delay in building or

whatever. What is clear is that Residelia will not continue in the medium

term and will not be able to pay the existing rental agreement rate. We can

either let this drag on for 3-4 years and get no income for most of that

time, and then likely get nothing other than legal expenses.

The value is certainly influenced by rental income, but these are falling all

over France due to the Recession etc, An Douar has more going for it than

most due to its size, proximity to the beach and quality of build. It is likely

to rebound as the economy turns round, at which point our new contract

and management agreement needs to allow us to benefit fully from a rising

market. To sell now would be to take a serious hit, but then what about the

RBS share value etc?

So practical strategies to solve our current situation please rather than

generalisations please.

Greenfintry

Hi all, just came across this forum. We too are owners of one of these

apartments. We are one of two Irish owners and have joined with 12

other French investors that are going down the legal route. The lawyer

we have engaged is Harve Gardey ( Praxes Avocats) . He is is situated

in Paris. If anyone is interested in his details get back to me. Our case

was heard last Monday and are still waiting for a judgment.

We have been trying to get an integrated approach going forwards with

much of this activity being shown on this blog and also using Bertrand

at c'est la vie. We and he would be interested to join forces both to

recover money due and also to ensure a good contract with a new

Management firm going forwards. Bertrand seems to be making

progress with Residelia and Goelia at the moment, and I would suggest

you contact him direct. We are all keen to be unified and not to

reinvent the wheel. Please advise on what we can do to help etc

Cheers

Hi Greenfintry,

I am of same opinion as you and I am also using Bertrand from Ce la vie. Like you say he appears to making good progress at the moment and I received a response from him on Monday saying "French owners want to challenge the proposal from Goelia and asked for more proposals. They asked one of the initial seller to get more proposal before end of July". We should hear more at the end of July. Its definately looking more promising I think.

Thanks,

Julian

Hi Greenfintry

Thanks for that will contact them directly and give my details will keep

you posted. Let's hope we see an end to this soon, it has been going

on for so long.

Regards

Hi all,

Good to see that there is some activity with owners- all

be it to little avail.

I am also waiting for information from Bertrand at the

end of July. It will be important that we are all

communicating.

Lets hope for a something positive.

Hi All,

Has anybody had an update on the current situation since

October? I have heard nothing. I have received no rent

since June either.

What can/should we do now? I was ok to wait to see if

things could be resolved but no perhaps we need to get a

solicitor on the case.

Regards

Barney

For all those who have already signed the new contract

and those who have not signed

Do you not feel almost a fraud has been committed on you

by first signing with Goelia, then Goelia inserted

Residallia and after they have gotten your money

Resdidallia defaulted and back to Goelia with 50%

reduction in rent.

Any leaseback value is intrinsically connected to its

yield and you have lost 50% of initial value of your

investment, and guess what it was Goelia/Residallia

façade pocketed your money and Goelia had chopped into

its pocket. Amusingly, it is Goelia now plays a saviour

role with your big portion of your money.

Are you not at least resentful and felt betrayed about

this whole saga (well for Goelia it is) and I would say

it is bordering scam and fraud.

I think Goelia has to pay compensation to the investors

and although it may be wishful thought at this point in

time.

Please take time to reflect.

Kana

I guess we have all figured the points out that you are making...... Are you hinting or going somewhere else with these thoughts????

Just picking up the threads after the holidays. we spoke to Bertrand about 2 weeks ago, and he seemed to think some progress was being made with Goelia. He also said he would send something round by the end of August.

Can we work out how many folk are using the blog, and are we all in touch with Bertrand?

Also how did the legal process mentioned earlier in the thread end? Again, if it has tipped Residelia into administration please let us know? Personally, we would like to see a full resolution to the current situation so that by next summer season we will be getting an income and certainty going forwards. Rent due and compensation etc take a back seat to certainty going forwards......
cheers

Hi

We have been in touch with Bertrand but were waiting for

the end of the holiday period for some up to date

information. It is now a year since Residelia have paid

any rent!

This is quite frustrating. If Residelia has gone into

administration what does this mean for the owners? Doeas

this mean that the lease is broken.

Also I recall promises of something positive happening in

March, June and July also. We are getting a little

sceptical at this stage. But in the meantime we have no

rent and Residelia appear to be merrily renting out our

property all Summer. Basically I want a rental income and

the situation rectified asap.

LATEST MESSAGE TODAY FROM C'EST LA VIE:

Dear Clients,

I hope you’re all keeping well and you had a nice summer.

This morning, with Bertrand, I made an update of the situation regarding An

Douar.

Mr CAZES could not find another management company and he agrees to

convince owners to sign a leaseback with GOELIA. French owners agreed to

sign with GOELIA. The contract should be sent soon if GOELIA still agrees to

manage AN DOUAR.

Bertrand and I, for different reasons, tried to contact Mr DELHAL, from

RESIDELIA, but it’s been very hard to get in touch with him and neither

Bertrand nor I could talk to him yet.

Bertrand wishes Mr Delhal to pay some rents to all of you. I really hope

Bertrand will be able to talk to him before he goes for holiday.

Some of you did contact me to know how to proceed to book their free

weeks for holidays at An Douar. Bertrand advises you to contact directly the

residence to plan their stays. I will also inform the residence that you will

contact them regarding this matter and you will not have to pay for your

stay.

Does anyone know who Mr. Cazes is? Has anyone had any

contact with Mr. Delhal? What was the outcome of teh

legal proceedings mentioned in an earlier post?

So many questions and NO answers.

On a slightly more positive note. We didn't have a

problem booking at An Douar. You can contact the

residence by telephone at: 00.33.2.98.70.04.00 or by fax

at: 00.33.2.98.70.27.32 or by email to

info.audierne@residelia.fr. Philipe is the residence

manager and is really quite helpful. We had a very

pleasant time there in June.

So at least I am able to offer some good news.

Hi all,

has anyone heard anything about An Douar? Has any one been

paid any rent? Has anyone contacted a solicitor yet?

Barney

We are still in contact with C'est la Vie and Bertrand. He has been meeting

with some of the French owners, and an offer to the over the residence is

imminent:

"Dear Clients

I would like to give you an update on the situation in An Douar.

We contacted Goelia and we will receive a proposal of Goelia this week or

next week without the help of the former management company.

Unfortunately they will propose a 50 percent decrease plus a variable rent.

We will try to improve the proposal of course.

Regarding the payment of the rent, we will contact Residelia and if no news

will start a legal route.

As soon as I have news I will contact you.

Kind regards

Bertrand LE MIRE

8 rue Alphonse Daudet

44350 Guérande, FRANCE

Tel: 0033 (0) 240 157 485

Fax: 0033 (0) 240 157 495"

We have not had any rent either but suspect that this should start to move.

Suggest you all get in touch with Bertrand as the more of us the stronger

the negotiation position.....

greenfintry

Hi folks, Just got this in from Bertrand. PLEASE NOTE THE TIMESCALE!!

Dear clients,

We received a proposal from Goelia that you will find in attachment. It is

in French so I will explain the main points:

- lease will start the 1st March 2012, and the resort could open the 7th

April,

- need at least 80% of owners signing the new leases,

- rent 45% of the net turnover with a minimum of 40.000e per quarter to

share among all owners, which is in fact a decrease of approx 47% of the

rent

- personal occupancy: same as before,

- 100% of co-ownership paid by GOELIA

I will send this proposal to French owners. I will contact the Residelia in

order to get payment of the rent, cancel the leases if owners agree.

You may organise a meeting with owners and will keep you informed.

Kind regards

Bertrand

Bertrand LE MIRE

8 rue Alphonse Daudet

44350 Guérande, FRANCE

Tel: 0033 (0) 240 157 485

Fax: 0033 (0) 240 157 495

bertrand@clvproperties.com

If you want the attachments please email me on my home email

martinstjturner@mac.com as I don't think it is possible to put attachments

through the forum? Happy to forward the whole email.

Personally, best to get on with this and ensure that we get 100% of

something than 0% of anything in the year going forwards.

This is not my residence so probably shouldn't really

comment, but "net turnover"? Sounds like a figure that

could be subject to manipulation?

Has anyone from this residence sought proper legal advice?

How do you know you will receive the rent if you agree to

the new terms?

How can Residelia be negotiating a new lease through a

third party? Surely they should be liaising with owners

direct, particularly if they are looking to change the

terms of the original lease. Have you authorised someone

else to negotiate on your behalf (eg, an independent fully

qualified French lawyer), is that why you haven't heard

anything directly? If you haven't heard anything, how can

you agree to the takeover? Until matters settle, I would

imagine it would be very difficult to find a buyer.

Hi,

I have received an email from C'est La Vie that there will be payments from RESIDELIA.

Have you had any communications from anywhere about this.

Your lawyers or CLV.

Kana