Lagrange / Soderev

Hi All,

Can any one give me an idea of the number of British/Irish owners effected by the Soderev situation, property journalist interested in finding out more about leaseback.

jonb

I don't know how many folks here use Granth Thornton for their accounting services in France, but I do and they have just sent me a letter detailing the Safeguard Procedure as it relates to Soderev and ourselves. If anyone wants a copy of this let me have your email address, however the highlights are: -

• according to law unpaid rent up to safeguard procedure must be paid


• however the period open for them to make the payment is up to EIGHT YEARS, which will be decided by the court


• Soderev will present the court with a new 'operating budget' which may include a request to write off rent arrears and/or renegotiate rent


• The court will render a decision based on this proposal from Soderev

So, all looking favourable for us owners then. Not!

Apparently there is a meeting in Paris regarding the bankrupcy on 13th

November. We should all be getting letters at some point, probably at very

short notice to make sure we can't go!

Also, the annual meeting in Lyon is meant to take place later in October: lots

of notice again! (I haven't had any yet).

We have heard that our meeting will be on 20 Nov. We had the meeting in Lyon last week, which is when we heard about the safeguarding procedure.

I noted a post earlier which talked about not posting too much on this site and having private email correspondence. I think this is a good idea, but I am unclear about how we can achieve this, i.e how do we share our email addresses privately?

..just in from my accountant...

After a phone call to Soderev this morning it has been confirmed that the company is since the 28/09/2012 under receivership even though it hasn’t been officially published yet. Maître Abitbol is the receiver and Mr Leloux Tomas is the representative.

The direct consequence is that unfortunately the rent for the third trimester 2012 won’t be paid.

The action requires is to send all outstanding rent up the 28/09/2012 to the representative. In order to so would you please send us the following documents:

- Bank statements for the year 2012

- Rental statements from Soderev for the year 2012

So we can figure out the amount of the latest rent received and the date. It should be done before the 28/01/2013 for the Non Residents and before the 28/11/2012 for the French Residents.

The receiver will take around 2 months to decide the future of the company; it is very likely that he will start by renegotiating all leases by a decrease of rent. Please do contact us if that’s the case. You should also know that you probably won’t receive any rents for the next 6 to 9 months.

Hi,

I find this forum very good to at least get a grasp of what is going on with

Soderev.

One thing I do have a hard time understanding is however what happens if

Soderev does not owe you anything as of now. I receive my rent twice a year

(April 30 and October 30). Are they supposed (not saying that they will!) to

pay me on October 30 even if they are in receivership?

I have an appartment in Residence Aspen, La Plagne. Anyone else out there?

Not everyone uses facebook.

Personally I can't see the need to split into various factions or hide. It's hardly a secret that the french and us have forums where we will discuss strategies and nor should it be - that's the whole point. If Lagrange are monitoring it and realise people have seen through them and are willing to take legal action; refuse to sign leases and generally fail to roll over etc then it might make them more likely to offer a sensible deal in the first instance.

Reading between the lines..Soderev will try and re-negotiate the rent knowing that if people decline then the agreement will end and the owner will be liable for the TVA(VAT) @19%...what annoys me is that they are no doubt renting out the apartment and collecting money..my money.

When and if you turn down the reduced rent and are then liable for the VAT i think the time that the rent has not been paid will count towards a reduction in the VAT amount. It would be helpful to know how quickly the French tax office would want the outstanding VAT..?This news will kill the Leaseback market stone dead...

Leaseback market is already dead. Very few new sales of these things. However we are not the first to suffer like this - a quick glance through the forum here and you'll see that we were lucky to have got this far before the wheel feel off!

I am guessing we need to rally behind one or two focale point individuals who can gather us all together into one voice...? Best we also try to dissuade anyone we know from accepting reduced rents, at least not without consensus that that is the only way forward.

There is the issue of the Residence de Tourisme status I believe, which may come into play here. If too many did decide to pay the VAT and take their property into full ownership and management does not impact on the tax and other status of the whole development? Anyone know the precise details of this?

Hi,

I own a property at lfds and would like to know how to get on the list of

owners for Samoans.

Things are clearly moving fast and I think a concerted effort is required.

Was it justme who has a list.

Also, previously at lfds we used a French speaker based in Samoans to

attend annual meetings, but not sure if that is applicable for the Paris

meetings.

Whatever they decide, surely it is down to an individual to accept or not

the new lease terms and I for one would be happy to disconnect from

the lease and pay the TVA.

i use a company called C'est La Vie in France who do my accounts.I believe they are acting on behalf of there clients.They are saying we will not receive any rental for the next 6 to 9 months till the administrator has sorted it out.They also stressed that we should not in anyway be=reak our side of the leaseback agreement.

(Im a Samoens owner).So lets say we have to opportunity to negotiate the new bail commercial. What can we do ?

Since 2005/06 Lagrange have been putting up the holiday costs by say 5% year on year, yet all we have had is something like 4% rent increase over about 5 yrs. So surely they should be making more now than they did 5 yrs ago.

Another thought - from the letter they have 31 residences, say 100 property at each so 3000 properties, and they are what 3.5m euros in defecit = 1166 e per property. Is that what they are going to negotiate. What do we get for that. I would say that if they cannot fill the properties then they should give us say an extra 3 weeks own use per year. Then at least we have a chance to rent in out privately. How does that sound ?

Hi GaryC,

Was that the rent owed or no rent at all for the next 6 to 9 months?

no rent at all..the administrator will sort his end and they will try and re-negotiate the rents.

the only way you can make the case for staying with a reduced rent is if you cannot pay the outstanding VAT. Will the French VAT man demand immediate payment or will he accept it over a longer time...?

I will pay the VAT and be glad to get rid of and "Management" company

From what I´ve seen on this forum it seems like the proposed reduction of

rent is not time-limited which is a rough deal.

I would prefer to either be able to break the lease or to have a contract with

a rent that is actually based on the income of the apartment. This is sort of

what the "Optimum" packet was when I bought my apartment. I would then

pick and choose the weeks I want and then give the rest to Lagrange.

The rent income may be less for now when the european economy is the

way it is and increase as the european economy improves. This would also

be a good way of steering away from the connection between rent income

and property value which in my mind is handicapping the resale market for

leasebacks.

..thats very interesting..thanks for the article

I think all these points need to be made in a consistent manner to the firm of

lawyers that deals with the insolvency, i.e. the letter that was received

yesterday came from those lawyers, and I translated it for everyone.

It also explains the arguments of SODEREV quite clearly, i.e. they have had

less demand from holiday makers due to the recession, people going for

cheap internet deals, and also because many other residences were built.

This is particularly obvious in Samoens. Indeed, if I was a holiday maker, I

would not go to the Fermes de Samoens (and certainly not at the prices

charged), which are very basic accommodation with a tiny pool, when others

have built much nicer ones and even nearer to the lifts. So let's face reality,

please!

Agreed that breaking the lease probably is the best option if you are trying

to sell the apartment.

I am planning to hold on to my apartment for many years to come as I and

my family really enjoy staying there. I would however like to find a way to

have it managed and rented out. My firm belief is that if we can find a way

to have a flexible rent the risk of management companies going under

would be much lower.

Daft Doctor..my sentiments too.Sit tight...wait for the offer..Reject it and manage the place myself. Coincidently i am staying at Fermes Des Samoens in March renting another apartment thru OwnersDirect.co.uk..thats the way to go

I'm an owner at Peemor Pen, and a Chartered Accountant (Fellow of Institute of Chartered Accountants in England & Wales). I am happy to do any number crunching to help understand our financial positions and that of Soderev. If there is anything specific you would like my input on please let me know.

Just heard from LaGrange that we will receive a letter later this week about them going into administration.

Our development is Les Bastides Des Chaumettes, and we would be interested to hear from other owners

There are still more residences being built in the Alps. There is a particularly large and I believe hi-spec development at Pralong de Vanoise. One guess as to who the developer is ? Yes that's right it is La Grange.
It feels as though they made a nice healthy profit when they developed and sold our properties promising a guaranteed return. Only what wasn't made at all clear was that guarantee was going to be with a ring fenced puppet company which has no assets. Meanwhile La Grange get to keep the profit made from selling the developments.

I agree that the economy has changed and that will effect the promised returns but I do feel that La Grange are using this exercise to squeeze as much as the can out of owners. It is still very unclear what the contractual arrangements are between La Grange and Resitel / Soderev - how much do La Grange cream off the top of every booking made thus reducing the net income received by Resitel ?
Also, many bookings are made using tour operators so they will also be taking a slice of the profits - take a look at companies like Peak Retreats and see how much they charge (Resitel and Soderev may only receive a fraction of the rent paid by the customer). This is information we don't have and La Grange are unwilling to disclose.

There are 35 Uk/ Irish owners in our residence ( plus 4 from the USA). While we all have a common aim to try and protect our investment and not be totally shafted by Resitel/ La Grange, people do want different outcomes. If a journalist is going to write about Soderev please don't forget Resitel !

Some owners signed the addendum that was sent because they wanted to keep the TVA and a hassle free investment. Then there are those that did not sign but would still prefer to remain in leaseback but not at any cost (so they want to find some middle ground between the existing lease and the addendum offered back in April). Then there are a few of us that see this an opportunity to be lease free and feel that paying the TVA is worth the risk so that we can self rent.

What we have all agreed to do from the outset try to keep everyone as informed as possible and let everyone make their own decision based on their personal circumstances. That said, to avoid a conflict of interests the first legal advice/ action we took was only amoungst those that did not sign. However, the signed owners were informed that we were doing this.
So in summary, don't get frustrated if other owners don't share your opinion. Some owners simply won't have the time to self rent while others may not be able to finance paying back the TVA. It is a matter of maths, personal preference and time.

A closed facebook page is quite a good forum to use. I know not everyone has facebook but they maybe the same people that don't normally chat on web forums either.
Personal email addresses can be shared by sending a personal message to another owner via this forum.

Sparklygirl41201.514837963

Justme..no idea..i have never used our apartment..have always found it easier to book another elsewhere..will check the dates we are there and let you know..should be some updates by then

Hi

I've got a week booked in April and my strong suspicion

(hope?!) is that we will be able to use it. I'm no

lawyer, let alone a French one, but this seems to be the

equivalent of a British Administration, the Company

continues to trade and you can still book holidays on the

Lagrange websites. So hopefully the weeks booked should

be OK.

The offers that we are going to get for the changes to

the leases are all going to differ, dependant on the

trading of each individual site. So it would be useful

for owners at each site to stay in touch. I've made

contact with a couple of other owners at Le Clos Des

Vignes at Bergerac, are there any others reading these

posts who have properties on that Residence? If so,

could they message me? Thanks

I have never used these blog forums before so I am not sure

what to do.

I have a property in Le Clos Des Vignes, Bergerac.

I was told about this blog thingy and I would appreciate

any / all information on what is happening ?????

I have just received my creance form. Does anyone know what amount has to be filled in - it it just what we usually receive per quarter or something different? Any help gratefully receieved.

dublue...just read the previous conversations..lots of info in these.

If there's anyone out there from Les Trois Glaciers in Montchavin, please get

in touch. I received my "Avis de declaration de creance" today so am keen to

know what this all means & what anyone else might be doing about it.

Cheers, Peter...

There is a Les Trois Glaciers specific forum here:

http://www.quicktopic.com/48/H/DKK4PUxXCyd

Hi All, I'm a "classic" owner at Les Fermes de Samoens. It must be a huge

worry for those of you who are leaseback... but if you do decide to "go it

alone" it's not so bad. There are many plus sides to classic ownership (once

you get over the 19% hurdle ) I get about 14-16 weeks rental per year

and can of course use the place whenever I like (not as often as I would

like). It opens up any day change-overs which = cheap flights too.

That said, I too am very worried about the "up keep" of LFDS, especially

during the time it takes to sort out. Also... what happens if no buyer is

found?

steverushton..me and my friend..Steve Downey are staying at your place in March 2013 for 4 days..i believe Steve has stayed with you before.As you say,once you get over the VAT issue,and i believe we will have 3 years to pay this off then i am looking forward to becoming,as you say, a classic owner.It would be handy to pick your brains when the time comes.

Gary

Hi

First time on the site i am a property owner in Le Clos des Vignes Bergerac

What can we do as owners should we all get together from each development

Sorry to hear that Soderev is going down the same road as Resitel.
After 6 months we are still at a stand off with Resitel who have not cancelled our leases as threatened ( although this has now occured for some of their other residences - the one in Valloire is having its leases cancelled). I am very keen to go down the route of self renting if/when my lease is cancelled and feel that paying the TVA is the lesser of two evils.
Resitel have said we can seek termination of our leases but we would have to pay them compensation which we are not prepared to do given that it is Resitel that is asking us to accept new conditions. Hence the stale mate! We have ever just received our Q3 rent ( we did not receive Q1 and only received part of Q2 as the took off the property charges from our Q2 rent). Although the syndic have also sent us a bill for the property charges.
Try to get a list of all the owners for your residences and start contacting them now so that you can work together.
We have formed an owners group for our residence but a number of owners had already signed the addendum that they were sent - 42% of them. Some of those that did sign had not fully understood what they were signing as they thought they were just accepting a reduced rent of 15%. However, the addendum also passed all the property charges to the owners, plus the TV licence and rubbish collection costs (and probably the habitation tax as well but Resitel have never given us an answer about that). So the total change in net income would have been a 50% reduction.
You are not obliged to sign a new addendum if you are sent one so don't be pressured into doing so. if you don't sign the addendum and Soderev does not cancel your lease then your existing lease will still legally be in place.

If anyone has some information on the time scale for replayment of the TVA that would be appreciated. I have read that you have 3 years to pay it back but have not been able to confirm this or what instalments should be paid over that period. Thank you

Sparklygirl41192.5377430556

GaryC - no problem, pick away :-) Hopefully all will be well for your stay in

March. This short stay highlights a benefit of being away from Leaseback!

I also posted this on the St Gervais (Soderev) specific stream in this forum

This might be a naive approach but will consider forwarding this on to the

administrator (assuming they accept email correspondence).

1. Given that , according to Soderev, they has less demand, if we have to

take a significant lower rental fee in the short term that we are

compensated in line with the terms of the current lease agreement with

the equivalent weeks of use. We then have the opportunity to try and rent

these ourselves and generate some income.Utilising this spare capacity

for us wouldn't cost Soderev anything but for those trying to cover

mortgage costs would provide some retention of value. If the market picks

up then the reverse process can take place. This could take place under

the current agreement.

2. Will we see 'profit' figures for St Gervais itself i.e. is this a profitable

operation?

3. Any amends to our lease agreement should also mean that we can the

opportunity to cancel in the future without penalty.

Is there a method by which different proposals will be considered, or do

we have to wait for their proposal and then vote/reject?