thought- I might summarize what ive learnt so far.
lagrange in receivership so no rent prob for next year. meanwhile a new management company will (hopefully) form which will take over the leases for those that want to stay in the leaseback scheme- the new leases will prob have extra charges and much lower rents than heretofore. For those who want to exit the leaseback scheme, there will be vat repayable over 3 years (maybe someone might clarify will that be the full amount of vat or the portion that relates to the period from which the lease is exited).
Key point seems to be not to feel pressurised into signing a new lease without checking out all the angles/costs.
Other key point is that in all likelihood people will be better off exiting the leaseback scheme if they can afford to pay the vat as they will then have flexibilty re dates of occupation etc.
In both cases, whether one stays in the leaseback or exits the scheme, a management company will be nexcessary to be set up and keep the common areas clean and tidy.
It may be out of our hands but wouldnt it be good if we could have some influence on the management company that will actually run the place on a day to day basis? Maybe its wishful thinking on my behalf but with regard to les fermes de samoens I found it impossible to get anything done in the past ie get a tap fixed; deal with very short open hours at reception on changeover day (we had to sleep in a barn up the mountain one year as the place was locked up when we arrived!).
I dont know how others feel re this? And does the leaseback company ie soderev/lagrange have to be the same company that actually manages the day to day running of the property?
Hi to all - great forum.This is my first post so here goes:
As an owner of a property in Peemor Pen, Morgat, I feel we need to get as many owners as possible together. This to me is the key issue as we, as a group, are stronger and can make a better informed decision on how to proceed. We must look at options such as rejecting the new lease aggreement and sourcing a new management company, or possibly be in a position to negotiate an improved offer from Lagrange when a new lease contract is offered. I believe no offer will be made over the winter giving us until spring time to organise ourselves. If I receive interest, I will setup a web site specifically for Peemor Pen owners to register and communicate with each other.
I think you have summarized things well. Not sure any of us can at present answer fully the questions you pose however as we all seem to have the same concerns.
I am interested to know what happens with the management of the place right now - presumably the muppets working there, on the few hours they put in each day, are/were paid employees of Soderev/Lagrange. If the company is unable to pay us is it able to pay them and all associated running and maintenance costs that arise? If not, or at least not in full, then the service and general maintenance will surely go downhill from its already low base.
If I understand things correctly, the lease agreement we all entered into with Soderev/Lagrange covers the daily running of the place and thus pays the salaries of staff there, utilities and the maintenance, what little is done. There will be an attempt by the receiver to maybe try to maintain the Soderev management of the development but at lower terms for ourselves. If we all reject that offer then they will try to sell the deal to some other management outfit, who will likely come in with a similarly unwelcome offer. The problems for us may come if a sizeable number of owners choose to accept whatever new deal is put before them rather than rejecting it.
I would guess that if there was full consensus from all owners to reject anything but the original terms, then we could eventually see the receivers give it up as a lost cause and the management team just walk away and leave the place. We'd then need someone pretty quickly to take up the reigns of day to day property management. However I feel it unlikely we'd get to that point though as I suspect we'll end up with the limbo arrangement it seems some others are in, with someone continuing to rent out our apartments and us refusing to 'allow' that to happen, but powerless to stop it.
I'd like to see a great and glorious day when we're all out of the horror of leaseback and in control of our destiny with these apartments, but I feel we may be in for a bumpy ride before we get anywhere near that.
I should like to invite any interested owners to a conference call to be held on 28 October to share information and discuss options.
The conference call is to be held on Sunday 28 October at 08:30 UK time. I expect the call to last at least one hour, and the objectives are to share information and also to discuss potential outcomes.
All owners are welcome but particularly I should like to invite owners at Les Bastides des Chaumettes.
The dial in details are as follows.
International access number: +44 207 154 0601 The participant PIN (follow the prompts) is 7973353#
I look forward to talking to my fellow owners Sarah41193.5977662037
I am an owner at Les Fermes de Samoens. Several of you are familiar from our own forum when the site was being developed.
My own gut feeling is to get out of the lease, pay the VAT and self manage or sell. We too were told that what demand there is wants total flexibility in usuage so are not interested in leaseback.
Very keen to join forces as many of us have done in the past.
I purchased a leaseback flat at Les Patois Eugenie in Biarritz from LaGrange with a lease to Soderev. Sale is due to close at the end of 2012.my accountants have informed me of the Soderev issue.I would be happy to discuss the issues which will arise with any other purchaser of this units in this development. My phone number is 00353(0)879794046. JR63. My email adress is johnrogerkenny@gmail.com
Like everyone else, I have spent the last couple of days trawling the net for info.
For new joiners I found the topic ''VAT repayment'' on this site very informative.
Certainly at Les Fermes De Samoens there is a reception, laundry services and facilities, cleaning and even breakfast. If we were to end the lease, find a local management agent I understand that we would not have to repay the VAT. We would be classed as 'hotelier'. May mean lower income but at least we would have direct control of our properties and if a number of us group together we may be able to get a decent deal with a local management agent. Think that I can live with that. Obviously we need to get legal/accountant advice but seems a very attractive way to go.
In the meantime if Lagrange continues to rent these properties then we must make sure that our properties are insured. Am I right in assuming that the Syndic usually organise this annually in December?
The development which I bought from LaGrange at Les Patois Eugenie, Biarritz is not yet completed so Soderev have not yet invited me to a meeting. I would be very interested to find out what were the proposals from the Administrator of Soderev. JR63
Like everyone else we go the letter yesterday morning - no surprise and have found the site very useful - thank you. Had problems getting registered yesterday.
We are in Les Fermes de Samoens. 7 years in December.
We would like to come out of the lease scheme even if we have to pay the 13/20ths of the VAT over 3 years - concerned about them being able to charge us a commercial compensation for us not agreeing to a reduced offer of rent and increased charges which no doubt will be winging its way to us.
From what I read we need to act together with all the owners at LFDS as a collective using one advocat.
Will private message Justme for inclusion in the data base
Looks to me like the most important thing we can all do now is keep communicating with each other and then collectively review and most likely reject any new offer from Soderev that will certainly be lower/worse than that we are currently signed up to. All very simple.
The next but bigger hurdle is that of extraction from the existing lease arrangements and forming some sort of new association for each development or soucing a better deal from another party (which is probably unlikely). At that point joint legal resources will be paramount, both to share costs and to ensure unanimity of response.
Sarah, you seem to have some good links. 'Justme' has a database forming for owners of a couple of developments. Looks like others are doing likewise for other developments.
So, all in all, I think there is a good collective set of actions going already, and we haven't even had a formal new 'offer' from Soderev, just the letter informing of their predicament. Next call is theirs to make.
Stay calm and carry on, seems to be the best advice and plan for now. Just sorry for those who may already be under water financially because of this situation.
I thought I would let you have an update on our experience with La Grange so far. Our residence is run by Resitel which is one of 3 management companies used by La Grange ( Soderev is another).
Resitel appear to have cancelled a number of leases and returned keys where they wanted to cancel the contracts as soon as possible in their least profitable residences - these were mainly in the Pyrenees. Where the contract is terminated by the management company then compensation should not be due ( according to the solicitor we consulted). So for some Soderev residences the leases could be cancelled fairly quickly. Resitel had just two properties in the Alps and addendums to the lease were sent to owners of Cybele in Brides les Bains and Le Hameau in Vailloire in April ( the addendums were different for each residence). All owners were told that if they did not sign the addendum their leases would be cancelled. Both sets of owners met with La Grange in Paris on separate occassions to try and find some middle ground ( negotiate a fairer addendum) to no avail. With Cybele it was clear from the limited account information we could extract from La Grange that Resitel were asking owners to take a much bigger reduction in net income than was needed to keep the residence profitable. In September Resitel presented their recovery plan to the court and there were 3 residences where most owners had refused to sign the addendum which included Valloire and Brides. The Valloire owners have now been told that their leases will be cancelled and as far as I know there is no compensation to pay. They are now free to find another management company or self rent. For Cybele the situation has become more complex as Resitel / La Grange appear keen to keep the residence if possible so our leases have not been cancelled as threatened / promised. ( if the residence was really as unprofitable as they tried to make out our leases would have been terminated by now). They did however offer to terminate the leases for those that wanted to but compensation would be payable! As we won't sign the addendum and they haven't cancelled the leases we are at a stalemate. Resitel never answer any emails or phone calls and despite many requests the exact relationship between Resitel, La Grange and the La Grange Syndic ( LSI) remains unclear. LSI don't answer our emails either. However, it appears to be La Grange in Paris that makes the decisions. Owners that had weeks booked in the summer months were able to use their appartments and the residence has continued to be busy - they are taking bookings for the 2012/13 ski season ! We have not been sent the calender for occupation for next year so owners have been unable to book up the weeks they want to use their apartment. In summary, we are still playing a waiting game and it feels like Resitel are doing their best to wear us down in the hope more owners will eventually sign. Thankfully as a group we are standing up to what can only be described as 'bully boy' tatics. Resitel do not have to present their recovery plan to the court again until March 2013 so we could be in for another 6 months of uncertainty. Hope your residences work out. If Soderev do go into a sauvegarde regime and your leases are not cancelled then under French law they have to pay your future rent on time or face liqudation. Our Q3 rent was paid - although it was a week late.
As you know the receiver started meetings with owners in order to negotiate a decrease in rental income. We attended the meetings lest thursday 25th and we have been explained that 16 developments on a total of 31 are facing financial losses.
Meetings have been scheduled: the 25th October for Bergerac, St Gervais, Bénodet, Montignac. The 13th November for Les Coches, Luchon, Cybeles, Champagny and Samoens. The 20th November for Les Arc, Edelweis, Monchavin and Valoire.
Apparantly, if you do not own a unit in these developments, your rent should not be renegotiated.
Soderev gave us a copy of the Profit & Loss accounts for 2011 for each resort. They are proposing to reduce the rent for an amount equal to the losses and in addition the double the "forfait charges" that is deducted from the rent once a year.
Rent reductions were ranging from 29% to 64% according to the losses of the development. we have not been asked for immediate answer. The role of C'est La Vie is to negotiate better conditions is owners agree, what we started already.
You have 2 options: or C'est La Vie negotiate for you better conditions or you join the Group of owners of your development and follow the instructions of the Group.
If owners do not accept the new conditions of Soderev, the receiver will cancel the leases immediately (early December) and you will have to find a new management company. We consider that you have 12 months to find a new management company before to repay the VAT back, so the VAT is not an immedaite issue.
If you accept the new conditions of Soderev, you will have to sign an endorsement.
thanks for the post sparklygirl and hopefully your next date in court goes well.
What would be interesting is to get your views of how your legal team /advisers have acted so far?..... are you happy with them and would you be prepared to share their contact details with owners from other residences. would you recommend them as they seem to have done alot of the legwork so far.
How then have you managed to pay for this advice? did you set up a group account, get everyone to pay an amount in and go from there? has it been expensive?
From what you say, it appears that each property is being dealt with by lagrange on its own merits ie if they want to still manage it or not. If they dont, then they are happy to disgard it but if they found it profitable then they try and break your resolve down and hope you sign.
So on the basis of your information, it probaably makes more sense for each set of residents to form their own group as opposed to one large group covering multiple properties.
I have just received a breakdown from soderev outlining the shortfall in the 3rd trimestre. If you wait until this arrives it will make the form filling easier
Bear in mind you would have to repay 13/20 of the VAT rebate if the site is not run as a residence de tourisme with sufficient leaseback properties by one management company. That is not to say it's not an option but there are consequences.
From what I have read here on various discussions I understand our 3Q rent to be liabilities accruing before the safeguard and we will have to lodge a claim (whistle goodbye) for those. We should only get 2 or 3 days of rent ie after the safeguard to the end of the quarter.
Quite frankly I am now planning on not seeing a penny even though the prices on the Lagrange holidays website add up to £18000 on my appartment for the winter alone!!!
I agree with Lynne that LFDS is a popular resort but its profitability may be undermined by the yield that they offered when built.
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A quick message for Justme.
I am an owner at Les Fermes de Samoens and have just come across this site having received a few days ago my letter from Soderev.
I am very interested to join a group action, as having suffered this problem on two other leasebacks, I strongly believe that a solid and unified group with legal representation is the only way to proceed with any chance of success.
I have been trying to send my details to Justme via PM, but keep getting the message rejected as your PM mail box is full. Any chance you could empty some messages so that I can get my details to you and added on to the group list for LFDS.
English
Français
Lagrange / Soderev
Hi guys- great info on this forum- well done
thought- I might summarize what ive learnt so far.
lagrange in receivership so no rent prob for next year. meanwhile a new management company will (hopefully) form which will take over the leases for those that want to stay in the leaseback scheme- the new leases will prob have extra charges and much lower rents than heretofore. For those who want to exit the leaseback scheme, there will be vat repayable over 3 years (maybe someone might clarify will that be the full amount of vat or the portion that relates to the period from which the lease is exited).
Key point seems to be not to feel pressurised into signing a new lease without checking out all the angles/costs.
Other key point is that in all likelihood people will be better off exiting the leaseback scheme if they can afford to pay the vat as they will then have flexibilty re dates of occupation etc.
In both cases, whether one stays in the leaseback or exits the scheme, a management company will be nexcessary to be set up and keep the common areas clean and tidy.
It may be out of our hands but wouldnt it be good if we could have some influence on the management company that will actually run the place on a day to day basis? Maybe its wishful thinking on my behalf but with regard to les fermes de samoens I found it impossible to get anything done in the past ie get a tap fixed; deal with very short open hours at reception on changeover day (we had to sleep in a barn up the mountain one year as the place was locked up when we arrived!).
I dont know how others feel re this? And does the leaseback company ie soderev/lagrange have to be the same company that actually manages the day to day running of the property?
thanks
Lagrange / Soderev
Hi to all - great forum.This is my first post so here goes:
As an owner of a property in Peemor Pen, Morgat, I feel we need to get as many owners as possible together. This to me is the key issue as we, as a group, are stronger and can make a better informed decision on how to proceed. We must look at options such as rejecting the new lease aggreement and sourcing a new management company, or possibly be in a position to negotiate an improved offer from Lagrange when a new lease contract is offered. I believe no offer will be made over the winter giving us until spring time to organise ourselves. If I receive interest, I will setup a web site specifically for Peemor Pen owners to register and communicate with each other.
So I hope to be hearing from all in Premier Pen!
Lagrange / Soderev
Lescascades,
I think you have summarized things well. Not sure any of us can at present answer fully the questions you pose however as we all seem to have the same concerns.
I am interested to know what happens with the management of the place right now - presumably the muppets working there, on the few hours they put in each day, are/were paid employees of Soderev/Lagrange. If the company is unable to pay us is it able to pay them and all associated running and maintenance costs that arise? If not, or at least not in full, then the service and general maintenance will surely go downhill from its already low base.
If I understand things correctly, the lease agreement we all entered into with Soderev/Lagrange covers the daily running of the place and thus pays the salaries of staff there, utilities and the maintenance, what little is done. There will be an attempt by the receiver to maybe try to maintain the Soderev management of the development but at lower terms for ourselves. If we all reject that offer then they will try to sell the deal to some other management outfit, who will likely come in with a similarly unwelcome offer. The problems for us may come if a sizeable number of owners choose to accept whatever new deal is put before them rather than rejecting it.
I would guess that if there was full consensus from all owners to reject anything but the original terms, then we could eventually see the receivers give it up as a lost cause and the management team just walk away and leave the place. We'd then need someone pretty quickly to take up the reigns of day to day property management. However I feel it unlikely we'd get to that point though as I suspect we'll end up with the limbo arrangement it seems some others are in, with someone continuing to rent out our apartments and us refusing to 'allow' that to happen, but powerless to stop it.
I'd like to see a great and glorious day when we're all out of the horror of leaseback and in control of our destiny with these apartments, but I feel we may be in for a bumpy ride before we get anywhere near that.
Lagrange / Soderev
Hi
Nice post Lescascades. Thanks.
The only difference I have is that the staff on our site
are excellent. I find it very easy to get the small jobs
done.
Isn't the 'syndic' that operates the site and pays the
bills etc. separate from Soderev? I know that it has
Lagrange in the name but we get the voting papers for the
AGM etc.
I don't know who employs the staff, however, I think that
it's Soderev.
Can any of those guys who aren't part of the leaseback
scheme tell us how they pay for the management of their
sites?
Lagrange / Soderev
I see there are two Lagrange - Soderev threads ongoing in here. Some
info is duplicated some is new and good. For ease should we try to use
just one or can the moderator combine them?
Lagrange / Soderev
thatchchr- we get a bill twice a year to pay against. One of the mistakes
they made at LFDS when building is that there are no separate meters for
water or electricity, this is particularly annoying as we end up paying a
percentage of the total bill... annoying when you see lights left on
constantly in empty apartments.
Lagrange / Soderev
I agree with Justme there two separate threads in progress
on this site, one under owners stories, the other relating
to lease back companies/developments. Much of the info is
the same but I imagine the scale of this will get bigger
when owners get communication from Soderev and the volume
of info/opinion will be hard to follow. Is it possible for
owners of specific developments, to agree of a certain
thread, or can we create a thread relating in each specific
development?
I appreciate there other sites many in French, but one site
may give a better communication and liason between us all
Lagrange / Soderev
ANybody here with property in le clos de vignes?
Can somebody explain why the receiver can rent our property while in receivership and not pass the rent on to the owners
How is that legal?
Is there a page set up for les clos de vignes residents
Lagrange / Soderev
I have a property in Le Clos des Vignes as well. That makes about five
of us on the forum. A small number out of a possible 80!
Lagrange / Soderev
I should like to invite any interested owners to a
conference call to be held on 28 October to share
information and discuss options.
The conference call is to be held on Sunday 28 October at
08:30 UK time. I expect the call to last at least one
hour, and the objectives are to share information and
also to discuss potential outcomes.
All owners are welcome but particularly I should like to
invite owners at Les Bastides des Chaumettes.
The dial in details are as follows.
International access number: +44 207 154 0601
The participant PIN (follow the prompts) is 7973353#
I look forward to talking to my fellow owners Sarah41193.5977662037
Lagrange / Soderev
I am an owner at LFDS and received the bad news via my accountant. My
instinct is to pay the vat and get out ASAP. I think it unlikely that I will
choose to accept a new lease as the terms offered historically are very poor
indeed in these circumstances. My understanding on purchasing the
property was that if I sold prior the the end of the lease I would be liable to
repay only a portion of the TVA on a pro rata basis. It would be my hope
that a similar situation may arise here, however I have long since given up
positive thinking where French Leaseback is concerned.
I will be there 12/19th January and then again 16/23rd March, be great to
meet for a drink if anyone else is there at the same time.
Lagrange / Soderev
I am an owner at Les Fermes de Samoens. Several of you are familiar from our own forum when the site was being developed.
My own gut feeling is to get out of the lease, pay the VAT and self manage or sell. We too were told that what demand there is wants total flexibility in usuage so are not interested in leaseback.
Very keen to join forces as many of us have done in the past.
Lagrange / Soderev
I purchased a leaseback flat at Les Patois Eugenie in Biarritz from LaGrange with a lease to Soderev. Sale is due to close at the end of 2012.my accountants have informed me of the Soderev issue.I would be happy to discuss the issues which will arise with any other purchaser of this units in this development. My phone number is 00353(0)879794046.
JR63. My email adress is johnrogerkenny@gmail.com
JR6341193.6762615741
Lagrange / Soderev
Hi,
We are Classic owners of an Appartement in Les Fermes de Samoens and we
are following the two threads about Soderev with some concern. We will be
in LFDS at the end of October for a half term break, and will report back
what we find. We expect the site to be shut down as it is out of season.
I'm still trying to work out the company structure, our maintenance payments
(Appel de Fonds) are collected by Lagrange Syndic Immobilier. They send us
an itemised bill twice a year. We don't interact with Sodarev at all. Do
Sodarev collect the appartement hire fees and pass them on to Lagrange who
pay the (e.g. electricity) bills?
When our underfloor heating failed last year it was the Syndic who had the
authority to sort it out, which they did - eventually.
Regards
Dick n Chris
Lagrange / Soderev
Just had to laugh (for probably the first time in this saga) but apparently
Soderev want to work with us with transparency and a positive
approach! Perhaps answering calls and emails would be a start!!!
Lagrange / Soderev
hi folks
just joined the site having got my letter re administration today!
I must say from reading your excellent posts so far leaseback is looking a
dead duck and the good years seem behind us. In terms of value of the
property long term getting into traditional owner renting would seem
desirable despite VAT issues if the longer term is the plan
If anyone is in a la grange leaseback in La Plagne or Les arcs would be
especially interested in getting in touch re future strategy - we are in plan
peisey. We have manly French owners so collective British action seems
remote - nonetheless the advice to refuse all offers of reduced deals that
affect property value have been fantastic at this stage
look forward to hearing from anyone with a similar mainly European
ownership of their leaseback set up as acting in small numbers on a
collective problem seems silly
steve
Lagrange / Soderev
Hi I am an owner at les fermes st Gervais and would be keen to
connect to other owners
Lagrange / Soderev
Had letter today confirming Soderev financial problems and
in administration. End of September rent not paid - seems
unlikely now. Our leaseback property is in Cancale. We'd be
prepared to join any group trying to find a resolution to
this. Like others, we are confused by related French law as
well as by the opaque relationship between Soderev and
LaGrange.
Lagrange / Soderev
We are where we are. Some thoughts:
1. We haven't received any rent all year and there has
been no explanation of this or communication of
Lagrange's intentions. They have not responded to calls
and emails and letters, and I had to make myself
thoroughly objectionable before getting an admission that
they were in financial difficulties (something they
explicitly denied to me in July when I did my normal
trick of refusing to go away until I'd received some sort
of discussion of the issues). So I am very sceptical that
Lagrange "are very keen on working with you with
transparency and using a positive approach".
2. Our site is trading well. We go on the internet each
year to check prices and availability. This piece of
evidence is anecdotal but we made a silly mistake when it
came to booking our weeks, and it was a huge issue to
obtain use of our house because the site was completely
full. With Soderev though, we are bundled in with other
developments that are not trading so well.
3. The structure of the contracts is such that we have no
visibility of what Lagrange is paying to Soderev. That's
an intragroup transaction. The easy answer for Lagrange
in difficult times s to pay less money to Soderev. We
have no guarantees that even if we accept the forthcoming
(substantially worse) offer that it will be honoured by
the group.
4. It now becomes a commercial decision. We have to
weigh up the costs of the TVA and any rental income that
we would receive by letting the properties ourselves less
the maintenance costs. The alternative is whatever
Soderev offer, bearing in mind that in other
administrations the owners received very little or
nothing.
5. I am worried by the stories that those who have gone
before have relayed on trying to exit the lease that the
Lagrange group tried to pursue them for compensation for
not honouring the lease agreements. How that could even
be feasible in French law beggars belief, but still it
seems that is what Lagrange's lawyers have suggested. The
legal costs of trying to extricate ourselves from the
leases may be substantial (perhaps this is why the
compensation argument has been made?). So I am very
nervous about legal fees.
Lagrange / Soderev
Hi,
I am rereading all the recent letters from soderev and would like to
draw your attention to the one where they highlight the losses in 2011
and expected loss in 2012.
Aside from the fact that I would like them to also tell us what these
figures were for previous years, not just the last three during the
downturn that they are wringing about!
One point I am curious about, if they have not paid the full quarterly
rent to any of us and the rent due to owners was 19.8m per year, does
that mean they just reduced their operating loss by nearly 5m and
therefore will be making 1.5m in 2012 or is the 3.5m loss on top of this
5m saving?
Lagrange / Soderev
Hi
Got my letter today. Seemed inevitable that the maths would someday
break.
I am in Les Trois Glaciers, Montchavin. Happy to join up in action with other
owners.
Taking the apartment back seems like an interesting option, so would be
interested in experience of letting out direct in LTG. Not sure I have really
ever gauged how full it gets.
g
Lagrange / Soderev
Dave, I'm sorry that I accidentally deleted all the
messages in my inbox. But you can get copies of those
accounts for the earlier years - they are publicly filed
here - http://www.infogreffe.fr/infogreffe/index.do
What you will learn from these accounts is not much
though. You will learn that Soderev is in financial
difficulties. You will learn that an amount that is not
equal to the rents collected by the holiday company is
remitted to Soderev. You will learn that there are
strange and unreconciled intercompany balances with
Lagrange. You will learn that there are strange charges
going out to Switzerland. You will learn nothing about
the overall profitability of the group, which is
absolutely key.
Lagrange / Soderev
Like everyone else, I have spent the last couple of days trawling the net for info.
For new joiners I found the topic ''VAT repayment'' on this site very informative.
Certainly at Les Fermes De Samoens there is a reception, laundry services and facilities, cleaning and even breakfast. If we were to end the lease, find a local management agent I understand that we would not have to repay the VAT. We would be classed as 'hotelier'. May mean lower income but at least we would have direct control of our properties and if a number of us group together we may be able to get a decent deal with a local management agent. Think that I can live with that. Obviously we need to get legal/accountant advice but seems a very attractive way to go.
In the meantime if Lagrange continues to rent these properties then we must make sure that our properties are insured. Am I right in assuming that the Syndic usually organise this annually in December?
Lagrange / Soderev
It seems to have gone very quiet since yesterday's meetings. Does that mean that everyone still in shock at what they were told/offered?
Lagrange / Soderev
The development which I bought from LaGrange at Les Patois Eugenie, Biarritz is not yet completed so Soderev have not yet invited me to a meeting. I would be very interested to find out what were the proposals from the Administrator of Soderev.
JR63
Lagrange / Soderev
Like everyone else we go the letter yesterday morning - no surprise and have found the site very useful - thank you. Had problems getting registered yesterday.
We are in Les Fermes de Samoens. 7 years in December.
We would like to come out of the lease scheme even if we have to pay the 13/20ths of the VAT over 3 years - concerned about them being able to charge us a commercial compensation for us not agreeing to a reduced offer of rent and increased charges which no doubt will be winging its way to us.
From what I read we need to act together with all the owners at LFDS as a collective using one advocat.
Will private message Justme for inclusion in the data base
Lagrange / Soderev
A lady called Nathalie Grosclaude posted this elsewhere, but it is very important news and worth reposting here.
Nathalie has done a marvellous job in two days.
She has obtained a full list of owners on all the sites. If you message her with your email address, she will provide this list to you.
She is making an association to bloc the group and she has found a lawyer who specialises in this.
She will let you know more if you are interested.
Lagrange / Soderev
Sarah,
Is there a link or have I missed something ref Nathalie Grosclaude?
Lagrange / Soderev
Looks to me like the most important thing we can all do now is keep communicating with each other and then collectively review and most likely reject any new offer from Soderev that will certainly be lower/worse than that we are currently signed up to. All very simple.
The next but bigger hurdle is that of extraction from the existing lease arrangements and forming some sort of new association for each development or soucing a better deal from another party (which is probably unlikely). At that point joint legal resources will be paramount, both to share costs and to ensure unanimity of response.
Sarah, you seem to have some good links. 'Justme' has a database forming for owners of a couple of developments. Looks like others are doing likewise for other developments.
So, all in all, I think there is a good collective set of actions going already, and we haven't even had a formal new 'offer' from Soderev, just the letter informing of their predicament. Next call is theirs to make.
Stay calm and carry on, seems to be the best advice and plan for now. Just sorry for those who may already be under water financially because of this situation.
Lagrange / Soderev
Hi All
I thought I would let you have an update on our experience with La Grange so far. Our residence is run by Resitel which is one of 3 management companies used by La Grange ( Soderev is another).
Resitel appear to have cancelled a number of leases and returned keys where they wanted to cancel the contracts as soon as possible in their least profitable residences - these were mainly in the Pyrenees. Where the contract is terminated by the management company then compensation should not be due ( according to the solicitor we consulted). So for some Soderev residences the leases could be cancelled fairly quickly.
Resitel had just two properties in the Alps and addendums to the lease were sent to owners of Cybele in Brides les Bains and Le Hameau in Vailloire in April ( the addendums were different for each residence). All owners were told that if they did not sign the addendum their leases would be cancelled. Both sets of owners met with La Grange in Paris on separate occassions to try and find some middle ground ( negotiate a fairer addendum) to no avail.
With Cybele it was clear from the limited account information we could extract from La Grange that Resitel were asking owners to take a much bigger reduction in net income than was needed to keep the residence profitable.
In September Resitel presented their recovery plan to the court and there were 3 residences where most owners had refused to sign the addendum which included Valloire and Brides. The Valloire owners have now been told that their leases will be cancelled and as far as I know there is no compensation to pay. They are now free to find another management company or self rent.
For Cybele the situation has become more complex as Resitel / La Grange appear keen to keep the residence if possible so our leases have not been cancelled as threatened / promised. ( if the residence was really as unprofitable as they tried to make out our leases would have been terminated by now). They did however offer to terminate the leases for those that wanted to but compensation would be payable!
As we won't sign the addendum and they haven't cancelled the leases we are at a stalemate. Resitel never answer any emails or phone calls and despite many requests the exact relationship between Resitel, La Grange and the La Grange Syndic ( LSI) remains unclear. LSI don't answer our emails either. However, it appears to be La Grange in Paris that makes the decisions.
Owners that had weeks booked in the summer months were able to use their appartments and the residence has continued to be busy - they are taking bookings for the 2012/13 ski season !
We have not been sent the calender for occupation for next year so owners have been unable to book up the weeks they want to use their apartment.
In summary, we are still playing a waiting game and it feels like Resitel are doing their best to wear us down in the hope more owners will eventually sign. Thankfully as a group we are standing up to what can only be described as 'bully boy' tatics. Resitel do not have to present their recovery plan to the court again until March 2013 so we could be in for another 6 months of uncertainty.
Hope your residences work out. If Soderev do go into a sauvegarde regime and your leases are not cancelled then under French law they have to pay your future rent on time or face liqudation. Our Q3 rent was paid - although it was a week late.
Lagrange / Soderev
We understand (not from Lagrange or Soderev officially
yet, but via an advisor who attended the creditors
meetings held last week) that our residence is profitable
and that no addendum will be offered on our lease, and
that it will continue as previously. It is one of the 15
profitable residences, apparently.
This sounds like good news, but only to a certain extent.
We still have to go through the declaration de creance
process to try to recover previous lost rents. It has
also made us conscious that being bundled into Soderev,
the reason our rents weren't paid is a combination of any
inefficiencies by Lagrange and also because we were
supporting other less profitable residences.
What would be a good outcome for us would be to have the
residence ring-fenced, perhaps in its own limited
company, with absolute and secure visibility over the
income and expenditure being charged in those accounts.
This process should be about protecting the creditors as
well as protecting the company.
We're continuing to build secure contingency plans. A
group that has lost or renegotiated the vast majority of
its residences is a group that has to be doubtful in the
future. Can we be sure that it can survive in the longer
term? It's an organisation that seems to lack the
flexibility to cope with the future.
Lagrange / Soderev
Hi...had the same letter today.No idea if legally they can delay
payment...? It also worries me that Soderev appear to be having cash
flow issues.
Lagrange / Soderev
got this from my accountants...
As you know the receiver started meetings with owners in order to negotiate a decrease in rental income. We attended the meetings lest thursday 25th and we have been explained that 16 developments on a total of 31 are facing financial losses.
Meetings have been scheduled: the 25th October for Bergerac, St Gervais, Bénodet, Montignac. The 13th November for Les Coches, Luchon, Cybeles, Champagny and Samoens. The 20th November for Les Arc, Edelweis, Monchavin and Valoire.
Apparantly, if you do not own a unit in these developments, your rent should not be renegotiated.
Soderev gave us a copy of the Profit & Loss accounts for 2011 for each resort. They are proposing to reduce the rent for an amount equal to the losses and in addition the double the "forfait charges" that is deducted from the rent once a year.
Rent reductions were ranging from 29% to 64% according to the losses of the development. we have not been asked for immediate answer. The role of C'est La Vie is to negotiate better conditions is owners agree, what we started already.
You have 2 options: or C'est La Vie negotiate for you better conditions or you join the Group of owners of your development and follow the instructions of the Group.
If owners do not accept the new conditions of Soderev, the receiver will cancel the leases immediately (early December) and you will have to find a new management company. We consider that you have 12 months to find a new management company before to repay the VAT back, so the VAT is not an immedaite issue.
If you accept the new conditions of Soderev, you will have to sign an endorsement.
Lagrange / Soderev
Legally doesn't seem to come into leasebacks I've discovered! We
have two with LaGrange and have only received 60% of rent on the
second one
Lagrange / Soderev
thanks for the post sparklygirl and hopefully your next date in court goes well.
What would be interesting is to get your views of how your legal team /advisers have acted so far?..... are you happy with them and would you be prepared to share their contact details with owners from other residences. would you recommend them as they seem to have done alot of the legwork so far.
How then have you managed to pay for this advice? did you set up a group account, get everyone to pay an amount in and go from there? has it been expensive?
From what you say, it appears that each property is being dealt with by lagrange on its own merits ie if they want to still manage it or not. If they dont, then they are happy to disgard it but if they found it profitable then they try and break your resolve down and hope you sign.
So on the basis of your information, it probaably makes more sense for each set of residents to form their own group as opposed to one large group covering multiple properties.
thanks
Lagrange / Soderev
i mailed my french accountant and they are "taking action" on behalf of
their clients so we will see what happens.I suggest you mail your
accountants..
Lagrange / Soderev
Sarah / GaryC
Do you have the list of which developments are affected and requiring a rent
renegotiation?
Lagrange / Soderev
Received the June Quarter rent yesterday, but Soderev have
deducted the 2012 Forfait Charges of about €1,000. These
are not usually taken until the December Quarter (which
would have been payable January 2013). Hell of a cash
saving for Soderev, but I bet that it is 'legal' and that
there is nothing that we can do!
Lagrange / Soderev
I don't have a list personally but the advisor from C'est
la Vie took down a list and sent it to his clients, and
Gary mentioned the residences above. It's primarily the
ski residences. He mentions the following:
Bergerac, St Gervais, Bénodet, Montignac
Les Coches, Luchon, Cybeles, Champagny and Samoens
Les Arc, Edelweis, Monchavin and Valoire
We queried this list because it adds up to 13 (and not
16) but apparently this is because there is more than one
residence in some of the locations above.
Hope this helps!
Sarah
Lagrange / Soderev
Thanks Sarah, if we find any further information about the affected
properties we will post it here.
Lagrange / Soderev
Hi,
I have found this interesting article on what 'Safeguard'
entails under French insolvency law:
French Insolvency law:
What does Sauvegarde mean?
Lagrange / Soderev
Does anybody know if there is any benefit in sending in the
declaration de creance early?
Lagrange / Soderev
I have just received a breakdown from soderev outlining the shortfall in the 3rd trimestre. If you wait until this arrives it will make the form filling easier
Regards
Lagrange / Soderev
The date of the safeguard is 28 th September our rents are due 30 th
September according to the lease. Is the debt therefore deemed to be
before or after the safeguard ?
I believe LFDS will be one they want to keep as it rents well in winter
and summer. We will be in the same place as the owners in La Plagne
in for a long battle
Lynne
Lagrange / Soderev
Hi all. Sian and myself own D04 at LFDS and were getting
rather concerned at developments until Brigitte managed
to get hold of us yesterday. Finally got onto this forum
this evening. We certainly don't intend to sign any
leaseback that reduces our income as it barely covers
what we need it to at present.
We also own a house on a holiday complex in
Pembrokeshire, Wales, made up of 17 properties but also
including a swimming pool complex, gym etc. The majority
of the owners use a local holiday letting company and we
all pay monthly into a management group which maintains
the site, covers external maintenance and employs a
caretaker who looks after the pool, grounds etc. The
management group's shareholders are the owners and
certainly seems to work well.
We'd be quite happy to get out of the leaseback scheme
and go for a classic ownership with a management group
similar to that in our Pembrokeshire property. We
appreciate that we'd carry the risk, but the returns seem
better, and the advantage is that LFDS has both a Summer
and Winter season, unlike our property in West Wales
who's peak season is really 6 weeks long.
Many thanks for all the comments, we certainly feel
better knowing about what lies ahead, and that others
have similar views to us and are organising to do
something about all this.
We confirm that on purchasing the property in LFDS we
were told that a) extending the lease for a second 9
years was optional, and b) that the property would be
restored to as new condition by La Grange / Soderev at
their cost, not ours - after all any degredation will
have occurred due to their use, not ours over the
previous 9 years.
Lagrange / Soderev
And where the residences are self-managed, who looks after things like lifts/common areas? Did you appoint a new management company?
Lagrange / Soderev
Steve Hale,
Bear in mind you would have to repay 13/20 of the VAT rebate if the site is not run as a residence de tourisme with sufficient leaseback properties by one management company. That is not to say it's not an option but there are consequences.
Lagrange / Soderev
From what I have read here on various discussions I understand our 3Q rent to be liabilities accruing before the safeguard and we will have to lodge a claim (whistle goodbye) for those. We should only get 2 or 3 days of rent ie after the safeguard to the end of the quarter.
Quite frankly I am now planning on not seeing a penny even though the prices on the Lagrange holidays website add up to £18000 on my appartment for the winter alone!!!
I agree with Lynne that LFDS is a popular resort but its profitability may be undermined by the yield that they offered when built.
I am assuming a no-rent long haul.
Blotch41195.4698611111Lagrange / Soderev
mine too...will be interesting to see if its delayed when the next payment is due...?
Lagrange / Soderev
Hi,
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A quick message for Justme.
I am an owner at Les Fermes de Samoens and have just come across this site having received a few days ago my letter from Soderev.
I am very interested to join a group action, as having suffered this problem on two other leasebacks, I strongly believe that a solid and unified group with legal representation is the only way to proceed with any chance of success.
I have been trying to send my details to Justme via PM, but keep getting the message rejected as your PM mail box is full. Any chance you could empty some messages so that I can get my details to you and added on to the group list for LFDS.
Thanks
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