English
FrançaisDear All,
I have recently issued an indemnity of Eviction order to our management company, In order for them to hand over our keys to our property. They have requested a payment equivalent to three years Gross rental income. In most cases this will equate to a much larger figure than the rent they have been paying us.
Is anybody else in the same situation, i.e have paid an Indemnity of eviction fee ? To Pierre et Vacances or any other management company.
Please, note without paying an Eviction fee, they are not obliged to give you your property back unless you get a court order.
Regards to all
Fred
Yes - unfortunately this is typical of all French Mangement companies of leaseback schemes (I personally would call them cowboys) - I am afraid that your only recourse is to either negotiate a lower compensation figure or progress through thecourts and let a judge set the figure which you will have to abide by. And yes while this process is going on they will still have access to your property and it is highly porobable that this legal process could take upwards of 3 years. If you want to escalate the process can I suggest installing drill proof locks, install a full CCTV system and alearm that is operated remotley from your phone or tablet - basically a hostile repossession - deny them access, isuue a formal eviction notice through an Avocat, sit back and see what happens - with any luck they will take you to court, but again be prepared for some hefty legal expenses. If you do not fight these gangsters they will walk all over you as thet have done with 100's of others, this eviction indemity is one of the main ways they make their profits.
Yes, we have all been misled by French solicitors, but there must be some recourse in mis-selling a product such as in the PPI scandal? We cannot all be wrong! There must be thousands of people who were told that they can take back their properties after the lease period. The contract that everyone signed means that we will never, have the right to get back your property unless we pay an Indemnity fee (dictated by the management company) or the Law courts rule in your favour. As an Individual I think this is very unlikely.
This Law only protects the management company and not the owners and thus provides a framework for the dishonest legal system to make more money.
This, case should be solved by the High court in France. This should involve all the owners and for any unfortunate person who is likely to buy a ‘Leaseback’.
This scam of mis-selling should be put on social media, Radio and TV, so as to deter other British people not to part with their savings, so they do not fall into the same trap.
Fred
I agree with all your comments - there have been numerous articles in the media both social and newspaper on the mis-selling of leasebacks, but all to no avail. I do not know your lease but in mine there was a clause that stated "No eviction indemnity compensation would be paid by either party, shoudl the lease not be renewed or terminared." When I pointed this out to our management company Madame Vacances / Europgroup, the main reason tha I signed the lease and was witnessed by a notaire. Madame Vacances came back to me a nd stated basically that "Code 145 of the French Commercial Code, superseeded this clause and as such the clause was null and void - so basically I have signed a contract that the "otherside" can pick and choose what they will adhere to! If this is not mis-selling what is?Yes you are correct we have all basically signed a lease in perpituity and the only way we can get out of it is to pay an eviction indemnity or hope that the gangsters (sorry management company go bust). I have served a conge in June 2016 informing them that I will not be renewing the lease based on them breaking various aspects of the lease contract - late payment of rent, damage to property etc. They have challenged the conge, they have asked for an astonomical figure of 30,000 Euros compensation which I of course laughed at - they will now proceed to challenge me through the courts - unfortunately they have two years in which to issue a writ (this has happened to other owbers I am in touch with). In the meantime my initial 9 year lease is up on Dec 31 2016 - on teh first of Ja i will be issuing a writ by bailiff for a Notice of Eviction. I am not prepared to allow them access to my property after this date. My Avocat has advised that I must, but that should I win my case agaist them that I in turn can claim compensation for any period after the 1st Jan 2017 that they have occupied my property - the chances ofa successful claim against these cowboys is zero. I am therefore going to break French Law, against my Avoat's advice, and install drill proof dead bolts, a full CCTV system and an alarm system that if some one attempts entry I can set the siren off from my mobile phone and I can leave it on as long as is necessary.My onlyu hope is that hey will take me to court for denying them access - this may speed things up. If they do not then after 2 years they will probably go for me in court caliming both eviction indemnity and compensation for the period that I have denied them access. Expensive I know but it has got to the stage that I will not be walked over it is now no longer a financial consideration but a matter of principles - unfortuantely pricipales cost money. Regarding yor comment about mis-selling - the only advice I have recieved from my avocat - in the vent that I lose my case against the management company then I in turn should sue the notaires, agents and developers for that amount - probaly not what you wanted to hear but thats the state of play at the moment - there are no class actions in France each individual must take legal action, unfortunately some may not have teh finances to go down this route and really thats what the management companies depend on.
An interesting read wineflair - thanks.
We would like to have full ownership of our apartment once our initial lease period is up - this is the reason we bought it in the first place. If we are successful - and I realise there are many hoops to get through before this is ever likely to happen, I have been thinking about how the practicalities of full ownership in a Leaseback development would play out. Have you any thoughts on this?
You seem further down the line than us.
In particular, how do you think the bills for water, heating, electricity etc would be metered/managed/invoiced given that at the moment it is all included in our annual charge to CGH. Would it be practical or even possible to have some sort of individual meter in our apartment? Otherwise, if we are going to have to somehow accept a proportion of the total building's bill I can envisage all sorts of huge bills coming our way and ensuing arguments. This goes for all the building's maintenance costs too of communal areas etc.
I am beginning to think that achieving possession of the apartment would only be the tip of the iceberg.
Best regards
Loatie
Loatie, we refused rent reduction and forced the liquidation of our management company using a CDP. WE were in the process of going to install separate meters in our apartments and looking for them to be redesignated by the council (from Residence de Tourisme to normal freehold) when an offer to buy the buiding was accepted by everyone. Basically if the French really want it to happen then it can happen...they always find ways around their own laws when they have to.
@Plansamoen
Is it Pierres et Vacances that demanded payments a payment equivalent to three years gross rental income in compensation for not renewing the lease ?
Have you seen this article on 25th Sept in the Indo ?
http://www.independent.ie/life/home-garden/homes/the-french-dream-that-became-a-nightmare-35074444.html
The article is giving the impression that leasebacks with Pierre et Vacances are ok :
...but leaseback expert Annette Mink of FP Investments says there is still to be value had if you look for it.
"Many people bought them as part of a pension portfolio. For the bigger developers they have, for the most part, worked out well. We've had no problems with the likes of Pierre and Vacances, for instance.
Anyone care to comment ??
The journalist is on Twitter @Sinead_Ryan
Sinéad, since when did journalists ever tell the true story? If they are not bashing public servants then they are spinning some other rubbish. If you delve into P&V you will see that they charge exhorbitant amounts of money for refurbishment that could eat up at least one year's rental in a 9 year cycle. All is not well with any leaseback company. We are dealing with French crooks here remember.
Sinead - I contributed to your article and I am afraid that the last post is quite correct, there are very few, if any, people happy with these leaseback schemes. They have all been mis-sold, by what I can only describe as a crooked cartel made up of developers, buildrs, agents, bankers and notaires, who knew exactly what they where getting people to sign. Most of the residences where over priced and would never make the reurn suggested at the sales pitch. Hence tow years down the line they seek / demand rent reductions - the owners are caught in a finanical trap - if they do not accept then the management company could walk adn they are left with an outsatnding Vat bill which they may not be able to cover - the second senario is of course the eviction indemnity to get out of these crooked schemes, upeards of 3 times the gross rental income - where the hell has this eminated from? All in all a total scandal that teh French government doing nothiong about in fact you could say they condone it. As an ivestigative journalist maybe a few questions to teh French goverbment should be asked, I will be surprised if you even get a reply
SineadDM
Yes it is with Pierres et Vacances , that are asking for three years gross rental income before handing over the keys. As long as you do not want your property back, it is fine. Yes they have been O.K when, paying bills and for us receiving rental income, but I think for the majority of us, wanted to eventually use it as a holiday home.
Wineflair
Yes as you mention, this scam is unfortunately inscribed in French Law’ Article 145’ which leaves the owners of the ‘Residence du Tourism’ at a disadvantage. This ‘Article 145’, has to be proven in court, that it is bias, in the form of only protecting large companies and not the individual.
I can understand, builders, estate agents, developers acting in this manor, but I thought that a person who studied Law has the duty to act on your behalf especially if he / she, is being paid by the client. These ‘Notaires’ (rouges) should be sued and not be allowed to practice law. Maybe they can be sued for negligence.
I must say, I was suspicious when the Solicitor wanted to act on behalf of the developer and us.
It would be an idea to take these cases to the European Courts, but unfortunately, European Law cannot overrule French Law.
How can the French legal system allow this to happen?
Fred
The French legal system won't help you...they are all crooks unfortunately.
you could not have put it better - crooks, crooks and more crooks and I am afraid the French government who pretend to be socialist must fall into this category as well
wineflair I think you are right to do what you propose doing....take plenty of photographic and video evidence.
Will do - all will come to a head in January 2017, then I look forward to eventually getting to a court and letting a judge decide if all that is going on is fair. I will not be the first I know of two cases that are "much further down the line" than mine - will keep the forum updated. What I cannot understand is with all teh owners in the various management companies felling exactly the same way - why have they not grouped together en mass to acctack these companies and petitio the French Government - I for one would be willing to coordinate any move, language may prove a difficulty but we can always get past that. If there is anyone "out there" whi feels a coordinated protest could prove fruitful please post and I will send my personal email so that we can move forward
I think we should not take any unlawful action. We have to prove we were misinformed about these properties. Thousands of people cannot be wrong!!!!.
Everything has to be done by the law. If the Law says that they are entitled to carry on using our properties, then we have to abide by this until a high court decision.
In France, a Commercial lease is for Twenty years (not the nine or eleven) stated on our contracts. They may also, have the right to extend because they have built up a profitable business.
Has anyone got any written proof i.e. email letters etc. that said they can exit the lease in 9 or 11 years and keep their property as a holiday home? We were all told this but nothing was written down.
Legally the ‘Notaire’ has done nothing wrong; he is just a public servant registering the title. What should have happened was that we should have had a Lawyer (Not a translator) acting on our behalf, hence pointing out that these are commercial contracts that are similar to shops, restaurants and offices. I personally think that these contracts would not stand up in the High courts because we were all misled and signed a contract that is related to shops, offices and not an agreement that will allow us to have a holiday home after the lease term.
Any comments ????
I am afraid you are wrong in the case of a notaire - they are supposed by French law to be impartial and offer advice to both parties - the notaires in our situation should have advised us that eviction indemnity could be claimed. In some cases leases have aclause which states that no compensation can be claimed by either party if the lease is not renewed - once again the notaire should have pointed out that this clause in a lease has no basis in French law - I am afraid there are some corrupt notaires out there - google Apollinia Affaire and you will see what I mean. I appreciate your comments regarding abiding by the law, everyone to their own - abiding by the law has got me nowhere so lets see if breaking it does. Yes these management companie "alledgedly" do have the law on their side but in my view they are riding rough shod over us all. You maintain your peaceful protest - I am certainly going down the agrressive route. STOP TRUSTING THESE COOKS!
@wineflair
I'm interested in the idea of petitioning the French government and have set up a website to facilitate this.
I also don't understand how more owners are not calling for a group approach.
If you'd like to discuss further, you can contact me via the site contact form (I don't want to put contact details up here).
signed up today - any help I can be in this fight please contact me anytime, you now have my email - I am in Belfast but happy to meet up at anytime to discuss the way forward
My general advice here....sooner or later the management company will look to reduce the rent, always say no....each of you has an individual contract and if you hold firm they have no option to pay or you can have the lease cancelled. It is easier to cancel the lease without penalty if you have issued a few CDPs as you can show a history of them breaking lease agreements...but I am not a solicitor and you should always seek professional advice. We all stuck together and said no....they went into liquidation and the properties reverted back to us.
Has anyone paid, or know somebody who has paid an 'Indemnity of Eviction' in order to get their property back ?
If so, was this done through a Solicitor? Fred
yes i know of somebody who settled after negotiation he used Fabien Cordiez for the negotiations - you can google him for his contact details
Thanks for the contact.
We do not intend to renew our lease when it ends next year. Any update from anyone on the success (or not) of negotiating termination and compensation .
It'd be better if you stated reasons for not renewing lease.
As outlined in another post in recent days you can't just not renew a lease unless you have good reason such as a big drop in rnet or a history of misuse/poor mngt of your proeprty or a ridiculous claim for refurb of your property.
On these posts you'll find that
- some owners refused to pay a crazy drop and the tenant company seemed to have gone bankrupt. This was especially so when owners got togther and fought strongly. The owners then formed their own company to run matters. (some companies also appear to have got into liquidation prior to lease renewal ). However, I dont think that the matter ever went to cpouirt in these cases. I really want to know from any other owner if it did.
- many owners accepted a lease renewal regardless of a crap rent offer.
- and in many cases -like my own - owners had long battles (not court, just meetings and emails for ages-) and reached a compromise.
In most instances quoted in the many threads on this website I don't recall one owner refusing to renew a lease. It's usually a group action. A single owner refusing to renew whilst all other owners do renew puts you in a difficult position. renew.
French commercial law bends over backwards to protect the tenant (though I feel its the same in most countries). In law the lease MUST be renewed unless there are good grounds for the owner refusing.
I'd love to know the answer to your question -I've asked itwice on this website whether owners have succesfully won a legal battle with a tenant who made difficult demands for lease renewal.
We used Mr. Cordiez to serve a CDP last year - very expensive.
More disappointingly, from the outset, he was only interested in negotiating a buy out for which he seeks a hefty "Success Fee".
When we made it very clear that we would never pay a buy out fee, he lost interest in us.....
I found this as well only wants a cut of the negotiated settlement - my advice if you want to negotiate do it yourself
Why are you using very expensive solicitors to serve CDPs when it can be done via this site at a very small cost (£50). I'm actually not looking for business (believe it or not). I just want to make sure that users can see clearly what is available on the site!
Seamus
Seamus was a great help to us in the past but we encountered some difficulty engaging a bailiff as our lease remained in the name of the previous letting agents.
Will definitely be interested in using the CDP service you offer.
Catherine
Wineflair - what happened? Did you add locks to your property?...
It got to the stage were - both parties realised that a prolonged legal battle would only benefit one party - the lawyers - we eventually cmae to an amicable agreement on the level of settlement - I am afraid in my opinion under current French law, whether is is moral or not the management companies have the law on their side - unless a Company goes bust and leaves the development you are in - YOU WILL HAVE TO PAY SOME LEVEL OF EVICTION INDEMNITY - it went against every fibre of my being to pay them anything, but it ws the best thing I have done - no longer is this debacle encompassing my life - I have got the villa back, can come an go as I please and these "legal crooks" are no longer in my life - good luck to all those that are fighting the various management comapnies - they are in for a long drawn out battle - but unless the French government change teh current legislation I am afraid they are on a losing wicket.
Glad it worked out for you.
I am going to be going through this in the next couple of months with a property in Divonne les Bains, leaseback to Vacances Bleues. They have been very very good to me for the past 12 years - payment on time, all paperwork sent to me for taxes, etc etc. I hope that they continue to do what is right. I checked out their rentals if I were to rent a unit like the one I own and it is going for EUR1982 per month or EUR5946 per quarter. They are proposing to pay me EUR1772 per quarter. If I assume they have 65% occupation rate, this is then only 45% of what they are receiving in income. Doesn't seem equitable. Current rents they pay to me are about 65% of what they charge their clients (at the terms that i have assumed here). That seems about right.
I refused their offer. Did you have to go through a notary or other agent when you declined their offer to renew the lease, or did you just send back an email to the leaseback management company? I am not sure what is the legal process for notifying the management firm that I am declining their proposed offer. Any insights would be appreciated.
Michael.
ps --- not sure if these guys are all bad actors regarding the eviction notice process ... i'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt ... perhaps the the issue is the French government protects the citizens more than other countries (like where I live in the USA), so that people cannot be simply thrown into the streets by landlords ... maybe the property management companies are using this loophole to their advantage?... maybe? maybe not? thoughts?
Michael - French law dictates that you have to issue a conge stating that you are nor willing to renew the lease - this has to be delivered by a Huissier / Bailiff - emails and letters will not "stand up" in a French court if igoes that way - good luck